@Studio802 thank you for saying all that way more eloquently than I could articulate. I completely agree.
@Malissa et al:
I feel like I’ve heard a saying or proverb or something somewhere that went along the lines of:
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.“ ~Benjamin Franklin
While I understand that is a bit of an overreaction to the discussion of cameras in the makerspace, this discussion as set off all of my alarm bells as not a good thing.
Maybe off topic, but having to clean around other people’s stuff is making it harder and harder to clean in the wood shop. So many walls are lined with incomplete projects or materials with peoples names on them and they seem to be permanently stored there at this point. A long time ago we talked about a $5/week “parking pass” if you needed to leave a project or materials in the wood shop that wouldn’t fit in a locker… I liked that idea.
I’m happy to vacuum sawdust off a tool but there’s so much dust elsewhere because the stuff is stacking up and closing in. I also can’t find as many good scraps for projects because they’re buried behind slabs that people seem to claim, but leave there forever.
I agree with @Studio802 and others; there are definitely things we can do to encourage cleaning. The biggest thing is to make it as easy as possible. Make it easy to figure out where things go. Designate specific areas for temporary project storage and enforce time limits and labeling requirements. Have appropriate cleaning tools available and in good working order. Post some kind of cleaning checklist so it’s easy for new members to remember what needs to be done. Maybe a picture of the room in the state is expected to be left in. We already do some of these things, but I’d say all of our areas have room for improvement.
As far as cameras go, I see them as an unfortunate necessity. Finding out who is leaving messes is pretty low on my list of reasons to use them, though. Figuring out what happened to misplaced/misappropriated/damaged equipment and materials is one of the more frequent use cases. We had a time when one of the laptops went missing and was suspected stolen after searching the building, but after checking the cameras we found that someone had slid it under a couch and forgotten about it. We had a piece of handheld equipment that was taken during an open house event that we never would have recovered without the cameras. Even just for monitoring entrances, nearly every room has a long row of windows that can be used for entry. I can definitely understand not being a fan of having cameras recording everything you do, and if I didn’t think the positives greatly outweighed the negatives I wouldn’t support it either. As someone who has had the “privilege” of reviewing camera footage in the past, I can say that it is quite tedious and not something we had any desire to do without a specific need.
I must confess that im a bit of a wood hoarder, and there is a pile in the woodshop that’s mine, however its an active pile sincd im usually doing about 3-4 projects at a time. I do go through the pile and thin it out after a project is finished. Usually donating my scraps to a friend who runs an art school for kids here in town. I used to put scraps back into the stream in the woodshop, however the pieces would end up in the trash which was an anti-incentive to me. Cameras would be nice as tools are coming up missing and i do get tired of asking about their whereabouts on the forum. There’s two allen wrench sets missing and another matched set with handles that are missing pieces. Ive purchased my own clamps,glue, finishing materials since I use so much. Ive also have kicked around buying a mini chuck for the lathe since the original one the space had walked off and had to ask that SKW loan out theirs.
I never dreamed that this thread would grow so quickly as seeing that others in the space are encountering similar issues. Perhaps in the immediate future just some signage asking those using the shops just be considerate and clean up after themselves might be the way to go.
Might be good if all the leads came up with a unified “get your stuff outta here in x days” instead of each shop doing their own thing.
Also not super thrilled about cameras, but these aren’t private spaces. People are clearlyandrepeatedlyignoringwhatever guidance they were given during orientation (and those five are mostly searching for equipment misuse instead of inanimate objects magically growing legs). Are we going to wait until someone permanently destroys some costly equipment?
It’s also getting warmer, so it feels like just a matter of time before there’s another post about windows being left open at 1am or a “break in” due to the same thing…
I’ve been operating as if each classroom/shop already has a camera, running 24/7. This is okay to me not because I think everybody should be under watch all of the time, but because I assume that the footage is only used in the instance that there’s suspicious activity, such as break-ins and/or theft.
For a regular instance of a mess left with unknown origins, and/or a really big mess, it makes sense to consult the camera footage to find out who did it. But like Christian said, it’s not like this is some kind of voyeurism-- it’s work, and whoever’s looking at the footage would probably much prefer that people just clean up after themselves rather than create a need to consult this footage.
We already have a tacit commitment to not “outing” people for malfeasance, so I think “walls of shame” are right out. I’m also a big fan of second chances, and am willing to stretch that far enough to assume that somebody’s first infraction in a space that’s new to them probably wasn’t intentional-- whether the infraction was breaking something without saying something, and/or making a mess.
I have, after all, been the one who didn’t clean the collet because she couldn’t figure out how and was too nervous to ask, so she left it on the table, and then saw someone complaining about on the forum, and she was mortified so 'fessed up.
It’s in everybody’s best interest not to live in a space where Wesley gets a death sentence for breaking a greenhouse window. Sucks to be Wesley, sucks to be the Edo, sucks all around.
Good faith means assuming that people mean well. People who mean well are surprised to learn that they screwed up, and resolve to do better upon such discovery. Evidence to the contrary of that makes an easy argument for a temporary vacation from the space.
Gretchen’s a Trekkie fan!!! WOOT WOOT. With that said, I can certainly understand why being on camera might bother some. It bothers me in some ways but other ways it doesn’t. Makeer space is a work space, it’s public space for our members so I don’t have an issue with cameras in classrooms. I’m use to being on camera. I was being watched and recorded at work for 12 years. It never phased me because I knew I was not doing anything wrong. In 12 years the ONLY thing negative my bosses said about me was I became less attentive to customers if I became engrossed in something. That was it after 12 years of surveillance on me. I feel cameras in the classrooms will help. I also know that no one wants to think we have dishonest makers, but we do get them from time to time. I know ceramics has had stuff stolen in the past. I’ve had stuff stolen, broken and people using stuff from my private shelf. It would be nice to have cameras so we can figure out what happened if something goes wrong. Plus if there is ever a conflict then the cameras can help with determining a solution.
I have had some pretty heated discussions about the woodshop. As far as I am concerned, this behavior is being tolerated by some. The woodshop has become a junk shop. i have basically stopped coming there for this reason. It is inexpensive enough I still maintain a membership in case I need something. However, it is no longer a place I enjoy hanging out. It is supposed to be a Maker Space, not a storage space, not a scrap yard.
Wow. I am sorry you feel that way about the wood shop. I am considering promoting a quarterly cleanup around the space. Do you think if we did a consistent cleanup each quarter that would be enough?
Mr Arnold, our woodshop is not a scrapyard. It is a productive shop with great machines. Most people are are there to do a project and in my experience, the machines are always usable. Not sure when you were in there last actually.
Sorry you had to deal with that Sheldon, and thanks to you and everyone who has cleaned another’s mess. We all have to do it occasionally–its part of being excellent in a volunteer run organization. Consider it an exercise in humility. To me what is important is that the machines are usable in the woodshop. If the mess or storage inhibits the use or safe use of a machine, then it’s a problem. It’s a woodshop, it aint gonna pass the white glove test. It’s really easy to criticize negative stuff and miss the positive. A lot of projects come in and out daily. We have a great woodshop at MakeICT.
If anyone wants to volunteer or has ideas, get in touch with me please.
I personally dont like cameras to police messes, its too much manpower to review footage. In the time that takes you could clean the whole shop!
Quarterly cleanings are not near enough, in my opinion.
Educating members that using and being part of a shared workshop/workspace includes budgeting their project time to include cleaning up is where we should be starting.
Remember it’s always easier to clean the small mess than wait for the mess to accumulate and have to clean a larger mess.
“Storage of any items outside of the previously described
scopes must be approved by the Makerspace Director for
general storage, or the Area Lead for area-specific storage”
Regardless, are there some specific items preventing you from using the woodshop effectively?
Shall we ask the same of the huge thread of people who are talking about cleanup? Last we talked you said it was just me. It is clear you and I have different ideas, and you have told me you are the lead, and you make the rules. I will go back to being quiet and let the mess continue.
I was just looking at that policy myself. I think it could use a bit of cleanup itself, but I believe that following more closely the general intent and guidelines it lays out would help in a lot of areas (I am a bit biased since I helped write it). Being specific about where storage is allowed and to what extent, requiring everything to be clearly labeled and dated, etc. Having materials and projects leaned against random walls and equipment and piled on work surfaces with little to no indication of who they belong to just leads to frustration for the people who have to work around them.
well here’s the main reason why it bugs me that not everyone cleans up. I have a finite amount of time to use the equipment, any time spent on cleaning up after someone else takes away from that.
i have always worked at making sure my various projects (i have 5 of them going at the moment) are Not in anyone’s way and are labeled, as per the storage policy states on the first page. I do have a locker and i pay rent on it as well, its full of tools and stuff and labeled with my pic and contact info as well. I have watched in the past as people will mill through and actually go through my stuff looking for something. If my creative mess offends anyone, it would be nice to have someone point it out to me privately rather than just carpet bomb the forum about it with generalizations and partial screenshots.
Im planning on having an non creative day to pop by and go through my stuff just because i actually dont know what i have.
is a bit of an overreaction to the discussion of cameras in the makerspace, this discussion as set off all of my alarm bells as not a good thing.
