April, I do see your point with the statement you highlighted. Maybe it needs to be clarified exactly what that statement means. However, I still see that “We do not tolerate harassment of participants in any form.” as covering everyone who feels harassed for any real and reasonable reason.
I see marginalized people as those who have historically and openly been harassed and discriminated against, up to and including death threats or actually being killed because they are deemed to be different than the mainstream. Should those people not be protected by policy even if a policy has to go so far as spelling out those differences? Sure we have Federal laws that are meant to protect against certain things like murder and other things, but some people still seem to think it’s ok to commit those crimes against marginalized people but not against those who are not marginalized and who are seen as privileged.
Still, I understand what you are saying, and unless there’s a good explanation for it, it seems that the part of that sentence that says " over privileged people’s comfort" could possibly be removed or reworded in such a way that it can’t be construed as being discriminatory. I’m not sure what that wording would be, but maybe there’s something.
Excellent points James. The example of the wheelchair ramp works very well as an example of being inclusive, even though most people don’t need that thing included in their lives.
Communicating calmly, as you say, is the only way to make an organization work.
Much needed and overdue. Thanks for your hard work on this @Sherry, @Noahjwc, the rest of the committee, and the board.
There are some unfortunate but not uncommon takes on privilege in this thread. Any individual can and does have multiple privileges that others do not enjoy, while simultaneously lacking privileges that others have. Nobody is WHOLLY privileged or not.
One privilege I have is that certain people don’t immediately dismiss my ideas or myself based on my gender. They may dismiss my ideas for other reasons, but those reasons are generally unrelated to my genitals or how I present. Another privilege that I have is having no known allergies. That means I can eat anything I want without worry, and allows me to remove entire categories of food from my diet and still have an incredible variety of foods to choose from. Another: nobody has ever even scoffed at an expression of my sexual orientation. I’ve experienced kidney stones and severe tooth aches, but I’m fortunate to not have any chronic illnesses. I wear glasses, but have full color vision. My hearing, sense of smell, and other sensory abilities are fully intact. People have certainly made negative assumptions about me based on my ethnicity, but people have also made positive (though unwanted) assumptions about me on the same basis.
If anyone reading this thinks they aren’t privileged in some kind of way, they’re wrong.
The harsh reality of our society is that racism happens. Sexism happens. Ableism happens. Ageism happens. Et cetera. When any of these things aren’t happening to you, it’s a privilege even if you have no way of knowing about it not happening to you.
I think people who misunderstand privilege in these discussions often just don’t have it framed correctly. “Privilege” doesn’t always mean being unjustly lifted up. In many of these conversations, privilege means not being unjustly held down.
With that in mind, I invite you to take a moment to think about what majority classes you belong to. If there was ever an occasion in your life where some butthole may have had an opportunity to exercise prejudice against a minority class you don’t belong to… congratulations - your privilege was to not be unjustly held down. Going deeper, being blissfully unaware of such occasions is itself a privilege.
While we’re reflecting, maybe take a moment to consider why some people might think about privilege strictly in terms of being unjustly lifted up while others can see privilege as also not being unjustly held down.
The “curb cut effect” is sorta the standard example of this idea, if you ever want to seed minds with reading material in the domain of inclusive design.
While I loved the simplicity of “Be excellent to each other” I am pleased to see that MakeICT has both thoughtfully and carefully moved towards a code of conduct that will continue to grow with the needs of the group. MakeICT is an amazing place because of the amazing people. Being in another time zone, I miss that connection. I hope that everyone that walks those halls can appreciate how special our space is and will continue to be! You’ve got this!
@dom Thank you very much for your take on the subject of privilege. That is an excellent way to think about it, one that I really didn’t put into the right words in my replies to this thread. I agree, everyone needs to think about the privileges they do have in their personal lives, in MakeICT, in this country, and in the world. Even if we have certain hardships in our lives, and many of us do in one way or another, we are also some of the most privileged people to ever exist whether we choose to believe that or not. On the other hand, we also all need to keep in mind the lack of certain privileges that we and others have in our lives and strive for acceptance of everyone and to help where we can.
Besides obvious disabilities, how do we know a certain person is priveledged or marginalized? by their sex? Their race? Or both? What about the other aspects of their lives as Dom and Jeff touched on? How do you know the details of people’s lives just by looking at them?
How about we judge people by the content of their character not their physical form?
You don’t.
If your bashing people with freckles, someone may ask you to stop. Maybe their mom had freckles. You don’t know.
I have the challenge of rheumatoid arthritis (actually psoriatic arthritis) but I try not to complain about it. But if your like ‘hey git on the other end of this giant rock’ I’ll be like nah I can’t. I’m not being a wuss, but really I have a challenge you don’t. I also have the challenge of toxic masculinity. So I should shut up and nut up, and dig in and help anyway.
What this is saying is that hey James, don’t worry about lifting that big stone. No one is going to make fun of you for it. You have other ways to help that are less painful for you.
This isn’t agianst anyone I think. It’s to help us understand types of people that have a hard time speaking about their challenges.
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On Fri, Nov 18, 2022, 11:29 Jesse Schlenker via MakeICT Forum <noreply@talk.makeict.org> wrote:
| Jesse
November 18 |
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So how do we know a certain person is priveledged or marginalized? by their sex? Their race? Or both? What about the other aspects of their lives as Dom and Jeff touched on? How do you know the details of people’s lives by looking at them?
How about we judge people by the content of their character not their physical form?
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Glad you said that, that’s what this policy was written to enshrine and protect.
Thanks Aaron, I guess i feel a little defensive about the reverse-isms. Reverse sexism means MEN, reverse racism means WHITE, cysphobia means HETERO. That’s me and a lot of other people here. It’s easy to feel prejudged and targeted.
One can be a straight white male and not be a racist, sexist homophobe. The wording in code of conduct does not give that benefit of the doubt and I think therein lies the nerve that was hit.
Hmm, would it be fair to say you worry the wording in this code of conduct could be used against you?
Are their any situations or specific issues that come to mind?
No i think everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
I do understand where you’re coming from, benefit of a doubt wise but are you directly worried the COC will be used against you for current or previous behaviors?
Or used against you at all?
My other line of thought is, how do you feel this COC removes benefit of doubt?
Its not about me; just trying to help explain why some people are upset about certain parts.
"MakeICT prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. The Board of Directors reserves the right not to act on complaints regarding:
- ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’"
The board can act or not act on whatever it wants–yet they felt the need to leave this paragraph in. Why?
It doesnt seem like equal treatment. Hopefully you read through all the previous posts for clarification on why some people are upset.
Not trying to beat the dead horse, and i have to get back to work. The COC is passed and not perfect imo. I hope everone is treated fairly and there are minimal incidents and complaints in the organization!
I did but I do seek further clarification. I understand if you do not have the time. Have a good day at work.
I will try to message you later
No need, I do encourage you to join us at the next meeting.
I have a major issues with the newly passed “policy” that i brought up at the board meeting and i was totally ignored/ my opinion minimized. I do plan on attending future “anti discrimination” committee meetings, but i will address them here for the majority of members who can’t attend.
1 this policy effects our bylaws, article 3, section 5 membership rights and responsibilities. The board didn’t follow our bylaws when they accepted this “policy” which adds additional responsibilities to members.
2 this “policy” restricts free speech and sets up unfair reporting practices where no evidence is necessary and accused individuals don’t get to defend themselves, but the board gets to publically shame them.
3 when Ethan called the vote he didn’t call David Springs or Aaron Rivers, but both were present. Yet the vote was called unanimous?
To be abundantly clear i think we need an anti discrimination policy, but ramming this terrible policy forward was a bad decision that clearly went against the will of the organizations membership. Also, I am part of a very oppressed minority that is targeted and silenced by this document (a group that is vocal and very inclusive relating to a medical condition) and I have had insulting things said about it in the space. This document does nothing for me, or the insults said to me. In fact it implies that my condition cannot be spoken about in the space.
I was considering stepping into an area lead role, but I am now considering joining the anti-discrimination committee and the board this summer instead. It is clear to me that our current board is out of control and my help is needed much more there!
- I welcome you to find an attorney who could support your interpretation of this compared to other policies which have responsibilities on members.
- The Board (or future Reports Committee) is absolutely required to investigate. We are not a court of law, however. Free speech is only restricted where it hurts other people.
- David Springs is not a member of the Board so he wouldn’t have a vote. Aaron had just joined and Ethan specified whether he should call Aaron or not since he had not been present for the discussion. JaiPal used to be a voting member but resigned all of his volunteer positions recently.
- I’m confused where you see language silencing anyone. Everyone is welcome to file reports, harassment can include any party. Please share the specific verbiage.
- You will be welcomed into leadership! The more hands the better, it’s easy to get burned out when folks criticize but don’t help. It’s disheartening when it’s mostly board members who show up to committee meetings. Many hands make light work
Unwelcome comments regarding a person’s lifestyle choices and practices, including those related to food, health, parenting, drugs, and employment.
I take this to mean i can’t say something if someone else finds it “unwelcome”. This limits my speach and allows others to judge my lifestyle choices and practices.
I also didn’t see any “investigation process” mentioned nor do I see any details of how accused parties will be heard. Please show me those sections.