What time and where, exactly?
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The meeting was held in an area thats closed?
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Sorry I missed the meeting! I thought the first one was on the 18th? I must have missed a message. Also, thank you for your hard work painting in the ceramics studio. It’s looking great!
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I also missed this… Did the date appear on any forums? I never received a message nor was there any indication to watch the calendar for this meeting.
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It was honestly a mistaken post in the event creator. It refreshed and reset the date. I checked in room 2 at 7, but the only people in the building for the meeting were the membership committee. Since people did show up, we talked about first steps. The first real meeting is planned for the 18th.
The Membership committee did clarify that anyone under 16 needs constant supervision in the room with them. That should help with the decisions we need to make about the minors who are actually key holding members.
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I was just reading the minutes of this meeting, in lew of not having access to the recommended policy. I see several problems with what has been stated in those minutes. Minor maker meeting notes 1-18-2023 - MakeICT Wiki
1." Review of Membership Committee letter to the board" There is no letter recorded in the board meeting minutes in December when this committee was formed or in January. If there were actually a letter it should be recorded in the Board meeting minutes and a copy available to the membership.
- " * Per Sec. 5.52.010, curfew is 11PM – 6AM for those under 15 and midnight – 6AM for 16 – 17 year old.
- Per Sec. 5.52.030, we could be subject to a mandatory, minimum fine of fifty dollars and a maximum fine of five hundred dollars, plus court costs for allowing a minor to be in the space after curfew."
The code clearly states it is for-profit business open to the public which we are neither.
(1)
For the purpose of this section “establishment” means any privately-owned place of business operated for a profit to which the public is invited, including, but not limited to, any place of amusement or entertainment.
(2)
It is a defense to prosecution that the owner, operator or employee of an establishment promptly notified the police department that a minor was present on the premises of the establishment during curfew hours and refused to leave.
3.“Ben has discussed with a lawyer and Attractive Nuisance Doctrine requires the equipment must be safe from harm if minors are expected to be present. Also, Tort Liability allows a minor’s family to sue the organization and the board members. We currently do not have any safety practices in place.” MakeICT has board insurance. We should not be taking hearsay from members and recording them as legal advice. If an attorney wants to send a written statement to this I more than welcome them too. So their expertise can be noted and reviewed. Any expert giving an opinion that they want the space to consider should put that opinion in writing so it can be noted and reviewed.
I obviously disagree on a couple counts, but did a bit more reading. Sec. 5.52.030 doesn’t apply to us but sec 5.52.010 does, so we save the $50 fine but could still face consequences for crimes committed by minors past curfew without supervision. The term establishment is not used in sec 5.52.010 and they refer to “any other place unsupervised by an adult”
I was asked to reach out and get legal advise. I reported that advise. You can read what they reported to me, you can read the relevant case material, and you are welcome to find another lawer to solicit free legal advise from.
Ask membership or the board why the letter is not public, I have it. It was written by @SteveO
As a nonprofit we should not be asking membership to seek free legal advice about our operation. Nor should legal advice reported second hand be documented in meeting minutes. That is not what meeting minutes are for and actually could create legal problems for us. If we need clarification on legal issues we should retain a lawyer and pay for their services period.
We already have a rule to cover this as well " * Illegal activity is forbidden" Standing rules - MakeICT Wiki
By stating my findings here I’m not accusing you of anything. Nothing of what I have said has been accusatory of you. Pointing out mistakes are important not only for the person that has made them, but so other members of the community can learn and grow. Since this is a thread about that committee, I thought this was an appropriate place to talk about the committee minutes.
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Prefacing this with THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE
How i read the entirety of the code referenced this whole issue could be resolved by adding the MakeICT expects members to follow local ordances. We already dissallow illegal activity.
I firmly believe it is incumbant on the board to seek legal advice for MakeICT unless they direct a member (preferably an area lead or committee chair) as a representative, and any communication by representatives should be by email with the board cced. This is as much to keep the message from getting ‘telephoned’ into a misrepresentation as to insure we have the advice given covered by the 4 corners rule as the advice given.
Would it behove us to “go to the well” and directly ask municipal courts if the section applies to our organization?
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I’m 100% with you.
We don’t have a rule against murder, because its illegal. It’s also illegal for minors to be out past curfews. I guess I’m fuzzy on why we have to mimic local laws in our bylaws
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My thought is that if you give an underage person 24 hour access, without at least MENTIONING that it goes against local curfew laws, it probably isn’t going to be obvious to that minor that they can’t be in the building past that time without supervision. Whereas murder being illegal is kinda obvious.
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I worked in a library for many years, and even when the library was open after curfew hours no one ever identified a need to state anything about city code in the use policies. Anyone 9th grade and above was allowed unsupervised access, and it’s even lower than that at the Wichita Public Library.
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It probably should have been noted in the minutes, but the letter to the board was pretty much verbatim from the Membership Committee’s December minutes (December 13, 2022 - Membership - MakeICT Wiki). As to why the board didn’t report it, that is probably because it was an advisory email rather than a formal agenda request. It was also sent to the board on very short notice, since we met the Tuesday prior to the board meeting. No action was proposed since the Minor Maker Safety Committee was going to be announced at the same meeting, and it would have been impropor for our committee to make any official proposal prior to their committee even meeting.
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This statement:
“There should also be further discussion whether the bullet point “This includes children. The lounge is not a daycare.” should be stricken. This was added in the old building as the lounge was not separated, and kids where running all over the space and being loud. Since this is now a separate room, as long as they are checked in on every once in a while, is there a problem with making a children’s area and letting them have free rein?”
And this statement:
“Will recommend to the board that the Guest policy be modified to revise “Guests must be directly supervised at all times while in the MakeICT Makerspace” to read “Guests must be in the same area as their host at all times while in the MakeICT Makerspace”. A bullet point should be added that the exceptions to this are trips to the bathroom, drinking fountain, or break room. We also feel that the policy should include a new statement “Members may be asked to remove their guests, or even remove themselves, if their guests are causing problems.””
Are in complete opposition of each other. How do you plan to clarify and accomplish both?
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When I was a minor I knew EXACTLY when I was past curfew, gave many an officer a merry chase through streets and yards. While I did occasionally duck into an open place of business, we aren’t a place like that.
If a minor loses track of time enough that they need an escort home, there should be an adult they can call, but if the call the police department and explain their situation they won’t be doing hard time in juvie. Except for once the cops just took me where I said home was.The Makerspace can’t be held responsible in that situation because we didn’t force or coerce them to be there because as per our current bylaws no illegal activities.
I’m over 18 and its unlikely that the grands are going to frequent the makerspace unaccompanied as members during that age range, so I don’t have a hand delt in this game. I just don’t want us mimicking a bunch of local ordinances when our time could be better spent elsewhere.
Like making cool stuff!
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Well first off, we did not make any proposal for any changes, so I don’t believe any clarification is necessary. But that being said, the first statement was a question. It was a decission that was made at the old space, and we were simply asking if it still needs to apply. Assuming that verbiage was stricken, however, the second statement can still be made, as all we would have to do is add a simple statement that the lounge is another exception.
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That’s interesting. I can’t see that the Wichita Public Library is ever open past city curfew. Maybe for special events? I think there is a difference between a city owned establishment with hired city employees that would most likely be considered sufficient supervision as per the somewhat murky wording in the city codes, and a nonprofit organization with no employees or supervising adults necessarily being in the building after hours.
The only reason I joined this committee is because I am concerned that it’s a liability for minors to be in the space unsupervised, especially after hours. I regularly bring my 3 minor teens to the space, so to clarity, I fully support minors in the space. And we are often here past curfew on weekends but I am with them supervising, even though I have a 14, 15 and 16 year old that could join and one be a keyed member.
I don’t agree with minors being keyed members with 24 hours access, and able to bring minor guests.
But at the end of the day, it’s clearly not up to me.
I just feel like it’s a valid concern for the safety of the space, for legal reasons. But it appears to me a lot of the powers that have been/be around here disagree and find it unnecessary.
And so it goes….
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Children under 16 have to be supervised by an adult. That’s already in the membership policy.
A 16 or 17 year old must have parent/guardian approval before becoming a member, and the parent signs a release of liability. If a parent allows an irresponsible teen to become a member, and that teen then causes problems at the space, it wouldn’t be any different than an irresponsible adult causing problems at the space.
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I don’t agree with that either, I think it needs to be stated different but not sure how.
An example situation I came across was a 14-year-old who had been approved to use the metal shop. His mother had a membership she only got the membership so that he could do what he needed to do to learn metal work. She had to work and he wanted to work on his metal work so his father came with him not understanding the rules. Since the mother was not with them, had I not been there to let them be my guest the son would have not been able to work on his metal work. And talking with the father I learned that neither parents have any interest in making but their son does. At that point I suggested they get their son of membership so that one of them could be his guest when he needed to work. That way he could do the making he wants and his parents could bring him back and forth to the space depending on who was available as his guest.
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