@Ben.rogers where is the meeting tonight? Room 2 was empty at 7pm as listed on the calendar
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We are meeting in pottery studio
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You should update the location, so that those of us who want to join, can join. But after an hour I left.
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We met with the membership committee. They feel that âdirect supervisionâ is being misinterpreted. Itâs like they say in orientation: âyou need to be with your guests (physically in the room with) at all times unless they are going to the restroomâ
Our next meeting will be on the 18th, with the membership committee present.
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What time and where, exactly?
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The meeting was held in an area thats closed?
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Sorry I missed the meeting! I thought the first one was on the 18th? I must have missed a message. Also, thank you for your hard work painting in the ceramics studio. Itâs looking great!
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I also missed this⌠Did the date appear on any forums? I never received a message nor was there any indication to watch the calendar for this meeting.
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It was honestly a mistaken post in the event creator. It refreshed and reset the date. I checked in room 2 at 7, but the only people in the building for the meeting were the membership committee. Since people did show up, we talked about first steps. The first real meeting is planned for the 18th.
The Membership committee did clarify that anyone under 16 needs constant supervision in the room with them. That should help with the decisions we need to make about the minors who are actually key holding members.
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I was just reading the minutes of this meeting, in lew of not having access to the recommended policy. I see several problems with what has been stated in those minutes. Minor maker meeting notes 1-18-2023 - MakeICT Wiki
1." Review of Membership Committee letter to the board" There is no letter recorded in the board meeting minutes in December when this committee was formed or in January. If there were actually a letter it should be recorded in the Board meeting minutes and a copy available to the membership.
- " * Per Sec. 5.52.010, curfew is 11PM â 6AM for those under 15 and midnight â 6AM for 16 â 17 year old.
- Per Sec. 5.52.030, we could be subject to a mandatory, minimum fine of fifty dollars and a maximum fine of five hundred dollars, plus court costs for allowing a minor to be in the space after curfew."
The code clearly states it is for-profit business open to the public which we are neither.
(1)
For the purpose of this section âestablishmentâ means any privately-owned place of business operated for a profit to which the public is invited, including, but not limited to, any place of amusement or entertainment.
(2)
It is a defense to prosecution that the owner, operator or employee of an establishment promptly notified the police department that a minor was present on the premises of the establishment during curfew hours and refused to leave.
3.âBen has discussed with a lawyer and Attractive Nuisance Doctrine requires the equipment must be safe from harm if minors are expected to be present. Also, Tort Liability allows a minorâs family to sue the organization and the board members. We currently do not have any safety practices in place.â MakeICT has board insurance. We should not be taking hearsay from members and recording them as legal advice. If an attorney wants to send a written statement to this I more than welcome them too. So their expertise can be noted and reviewed. Any expert giving an opinion that they want the space to consider should put that opinion in writing so it can be noted and reviewed.
I obviously disagree on a couple counts, but did a bit more reading. Sec. 5.52.030 doesnât apply to us but sec 5.52.010 does, so we save the $50 fine but could still face consequences for crimes committed by minors past curfew without supervision. The term establishment is not used in sec 5.52.010 and they refer to âany other place unsupervised by an adultâ
I was asked to reach out and get legal advise. I reported that advise. You can read what they reported to me, you can read the relevant case material, and you are welcome to find another lawer to solicit free legal advise from.
Ask membership or the board why the letter is not public, I have it. It was written by @SteveO
As a nonprofit we should not be asking membership to seek free legal advice about our operation. Nor should legal advice reported second hand be documented in meeting minutes. That is not what meeting minutes are for and actually could create legal problems for us. If we need clarification on legal issues we should retain a lawyer and pay for their services period.
We already have a rule to cover this as well " * Illegal activity is forbidden" Standing rules - MakeICT Wiki
By stating my findings here Iâm not accusing you of anything. Nothing of what I have said has been accusatory of you. Pointing out mistakes are important not only for the person that has made them, but so other members of the community can learn and grow. Since this is a thread about that committee, I thought this was an appropriate place to talk about the committee minutes.
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Prefacing this with THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE
How i read the entirety of the code referenced this whole issue could be resolved by adding the MakeICT expects members to follow local ordances. We already dissallow illegal activity.
I firmly believe it is incumbant on the board to seek legal advice for MakeICT unless they direct a member (preferably an area lead or committee chair) as a representative, and any communication by representatives should be by email with the board cced. This is as much to keep the message from getting âtelephonedâ into a misrepresentation as to insure we have the advice given covered by the 4 corners rule as the advice given.
Would it behove us to âgo to the wellâ and directly ask municipal courts if the section applies to our organization?
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Iâm 100% with you.
We donât have a rule against murder, because its illegal. Itâs also illegal for minors to be out past curfews. I guess Iâm fuzzy on why we have to mimic local laws in our bylaws
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My thought is that if you give an underage person 24 hour access, without at least MENTIONING that it goes against local curfew laws, it probably isnât going to be obvious to that minor that they canât be in the building past that time without supervision. Whereas murder being illegal is kinda obvious.
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I worked in a library for many years, and even when the library was open after curfew hours no one ever identified a need to state anything about city code in the use policies. Anyone 9th grade and above was allowed unsupervised access, and itâs even lower than that at the Wichita Public Library.
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It probably should have been noted in the minutes, but the letter to the board was pretty much verbatim from the Membership Committeeâs December minutes (December 13, 2022 - Membership - MakeICT Wiki). As to why the board didnât report it, that is probably because it was an advisory email rather than a formal agenda request. It was also sent to the board on very short notice, since we met the Tuesday prior to the board meeting. No action was proposed since the Minor Maker Safety Committee was going to be announced at the same meeting, and it would have been impropor for our committee to make any official proposal prior to their committee even meeting.
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This statement:
âThere should also be further discussion whether the bullet point âThis includes children. The lounge is not a daycare.â should be stricken. This was added in the old building as the lounge was not separated, and kids where running all over the space and being loud. Since this is now a separate room, as long as they are checked in on every once in a while, is there a problem with making a childrenâs area and letting them have free rein?â
And this statement:
âWill recommend to the board that the Guest policy be modified to revise âGuests must be directly supervised at all times while in the MakeICT Makerspaceâ to read âGuests must be in the same area as their host at all times while in the MakeICT Makerspaceâ. A bullet point should be added that the exceptions to this are trips to the bathroom, drinking fountain, or break room. We also feel that the policy should include a new statement âMembers may be asked to remove their guests, or even remove themselves, if their guests are causing problems.ââ
Are in complete opposition of each other. How do you plan to clarify and accomplish both?
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When I was a minor I knew EXACTLY when I was past curfew, gave many an officer a merry chase through streets and yards. While I did occasionally duck into an open place of business, we arenât a place like that.
If a minor loses track of time enough that they need an escort home, there should be an adult they can call, but if the call the police department and explain their situation they wonât be doing hard time in juvie. Except for once the cops just took me where I said home was.The Makerspace canât be held responsible in that situation because we didnât force or coerce them to be there because as per our current bylaws no illegal activities.
Iâm over 18 and its unlikely that the grands are going to frequent the makerspace unaccompanied as members during that age range, so I donât have a hand delt in this game. I just donât want us mimicking a bunch of local ordinances when our time could be better spent elsewhere.
Like making cool stuff!
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