Interesting, I didn’t know wood could expand/contract that much. I’ve been lucky enough on most/all of my projects, to have avoided that issue. It seems like on this one however, with the current brace I have glued in, the pieces could/will eventually crack or have other issues. I am definitely going to have to start this side panel from scratch now. Im glad i can put an end to that lol.
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It can be difficult to scrap something you’ve put a lot of work and time and care into.
You’re in there doing the work, gaining the experience, doing it right. Keep it up!
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I appreciate it. Scrapping worked hours does suck. Learning is good though.
I have one more question. I am thinking about probably applying the framing method and trying the glue up again. Using a slot to hold the glue up at the ends. What would be the best way to join this frame to the glue up to avoid cracking? How/where would I apply the elongated holes? Just on the sides or one of the faces?
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This is an Excellent Idea in any trade or craft when we have any doubts: ask someone who has done this before! Thank you for your eagerness to make an Excellent Offer.
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You may already know this, but for any newer makers here who do not:
Wood fibers get “fat” or “skinny” with the available moisture, but they don’t significantly “rise” or “grow taller”.
If the grain is horizontal in a panel, the panel(s) should “float” in a frame or a carcase and not be permanently glued or mechanically attached to wood oriented differently; otherwise, the work will grow vertically and rack or even destroy the piece. If the design requires such orientation, you can laminate, but you should probably laminate the entire surface.
If you don’t intend the work to last many generations, a very strong modern glue may be a good idea. If you want the work to be saved as an heirloom, consider using a natural hide glue that permits repairs in about a generation or two. Modern glues are usually stronger than the wood and moisture changes sometimes cause the beautiful wood to split in a not-always-beautiful way. Hide glues separate over time, and the joints can be re-glued with the same glue (luthiers and furniture conservators do this).
Woodworking is Excellent Working.
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Excellent advice!
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Can you recommend a good hide glue? I’m all out of horses atm
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On Sun, Dec 4, 2022, 08:28 Cole Haney via MakeICT Forum <noreply@talk.makeict.org> wrote:
| Cole MakeICT Member
December 4 |
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Excellent advice!
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In Reply To
| squarenuts MakeICT Board Member, Woodshop Area Lead
November 30 |
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The grain orientation is the source of the weakness, and the joints will probably hold up better than just the regular grain. For that reason I wouldn’t expect much of any improvement from using biscuit’s. Your idea of using laminate may actually add significant strength, but may cause other issues…
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This will depend upon your inclination. The short answer is probably Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, which has been favorably reviewed by many users in magazines, videos, etc.and you could stop reading now!
The longer answer (if you’re still reading) is that I like “old school” things (but that might not be your preference). You can do things as they’d be done at Old Cowtown and other museums and in traditional woodworking and musical instrument shops, or you can use modern packaging of the old stuff.
Traditional hide glue from crystals requires a glue pot and a heat source and a brush. The heat source historically has been an oil, spirit or alcohol burner that warms a vessel of water and a smaller pot within, but a modern electric coffee-mug heater (about $10 or so) such as you might use at your desk would be sufficient (we probably don’t want fires in our Excellent Make Space). The glue pot is usually smaller than you’d expect, holding about a shot’s glass volume or less of hide. I have a newer stainless steel pot and an electric warmer. I also have an antique pot. The glue traditionally is sold in “crystals” in a bag (think of the blue stuff in “Breaking Bad” to illustrate). You re-hydrate the crystals overnight in distilled water to get a protein-based glue about the consistency of maple syrup. You need additional equipment (including a brush) for this. And depending upon the quality of the maker, it can have an odor.
Well, that’s the TRADITIONAL way of doing it, if you’re inclined. Some folks still do this (or at least use the hide crystals) daily.
Unless you plan to use hide glue frequently, you may want to forego all this equipment/cost and use a read-to-use liquid hide in a bottle. This is similar to the way you probably already use polyvinyl acetate glue such as the common Titebond glue you buy in hardware and DIY stores. You may be able to source Titebond’s liquid hide glue, or search Amazon or another vendor for " Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, 8-Ounces #5013" or similar (I suggest the smaller size for smaller projects). Some professionals use PVA, some use crystal hide glue, some use liquid and some use combos.
The advantage of either type of hide glue is that unlike in a PVA joint, which is stronger than the wood, if you goof (and I goof all the time), you can use a little heat and un-goof your work without destroying any part it. But unlike PVA joints, the hide glue joints last only about 50-100 years, when another Excellent Maker will be able to easily restore the joint.
Whatever you choose, please post pictures of your Excellent Woodwork!
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Thanks for the suggestions, here is a picture of the current frame. I might make some changes based on some suggestions.
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A potentially strong alternative might be to start out with a piece of plywood and glue on strips of veneer with the size and grain orientation of your choice. Plywood has almost none of the humidity driven expansion/contraction of solid wood. Use PVA glue; and attach similar veneer on the opposite side (for stability). This will leave a plywood edge showing. The edge can be covered by gluing on strips of solid wood or veneer. If using solid for this, it should probably be thin, less than 1/16". If you want end grain showing on the shelf front edge, which is not so conventional, but consistent with your original idea; perhaps gluing on end slices, sized to match your top surface veneer, and of similar wood. I have not done this, but might attempt it with slices of perhaps 1/4" thickness. Then straighten the edge and reduce thickness by ‘ripping’ on the table saw. Further smoothing would call for sanding, I think, because jointers don’t like end grain, nor plywood. You could even join the edge treatment with tongue & groove (router table) then rip as above. Still a woodworking challenge, but likely to be strong and lasting.
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This probably would have been a much better design method, now knowing what veneer is. I actually learned what veneer edge banding is today, and I will need some to fix a mess I made. am very happy with the results of store bought edge banding after a test piece, and I am glad I learned what it is. You basically just iron it on, and they sell a little razor blade trim jig for it. Will make life much much easier then trying to glue on veneer strips I cut myself 
.
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I recently made some plywood shelves for a cabinet. Front edges were covered by 1/8" ripped strips, glued on. The roll of iron-on stuff would have been easier, but more expensive. And the available woods were not a match for the A-C pine veneer plywood. I’m also a little suspicious of store bought iron-on; how well does it last? But I’ve had little experience with it.
An intermediate was demonstrated recently on the PBS show, Classic Woodworking. They used strips of ordinary veneer for the edge of a round table. PVA glue was applied to both surfaces, then allowed to dry to the touch, about 20 min. The veneer was then applied by ironing on. “The heat reactivates the glue.” This idea allows the originally wet glue to soak into both surfaces, which seems likely to form a more durable bond. Heat also makes the wood more flexible, so it should bend to moderately curved surfaces without cracking.
This show also put veneer on the table top (and bottom, for balanced forces). They used wet glue, applied with a paint roller, then put it in a vacuum press for several hours. I don’t have a vacuum press, but might just use weights, or cauls made of plywood or 2x4s, with lots of clamps.
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Hmm interesting. I just did a test piece last night and it was really easy, and came out good. Its very flexible as well. It was like $10 for 25’ of .75" oak veneer edge band. Same stuff is pretty much sold everywhere.
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I’ve seen a lot of the YouTube users and others on TV who use that iron-on edge banding. I can’t speak to it from my own experience but with all those people using it, I would assume it must work really well. Some of them are very accomplished makers. I’d say it’s worth a try. If it tries to come off some day, I imagine it could be CA glued back into place and use that as a learning experience.
Someone return an iron to @Textiles Thursday evening they found in the woodshop. Please do not use the textile irons for veneer.
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Used to find woodworking clamps in the metal shop. Besides the notion of not using stuff in areas they aren’t intended for, it’s stupid that people have to be told to put stuff back where they found it.
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That iron was mine. The purple one. I left it there by mistake.
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Then Textiles is missing the exact same model of iron.
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I don’t care if textiles uses it, but I need to use it too. It was only like $20-40 at walmart. Maybe you guys can put in a request for more if you need them?
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