I think that is something Ralph is working on with the maintenance committee… the roof is not going to be a cheap fix, but if the core samples come back good, that may make it a less expensive fix.
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Hi guys!
I am taking a metalsmithing class with the new art teacher of Maize HS and I asked her about the solar panels there last night.
@Ethan.Doak She gave me the email for Mr. Bergkamp and said that he is ALWAYS willing to talk about the setup. Sbergkamp at usd266 dot com. Give it a whirl!
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OK! This thread spun from an Inquiry about AC for lab spaces to energy generation, energy efficiency and DIY types of AC.
I spent 11 years as a Home Energy Auditor and Certifying Energy Star New Homes. Thus some comments:
Two types of Ground Source HVAC (aka Geothermal) heating and cooling are common. Just like your standard air conditioner, it works on Boyles Law. Open Loop, aka pump and dump, takes water from a well, or other outside source, pushes it through the outside unit to transfer heat, and puts it back. The main problem with Open Loops are impurities in the water, and adequate water supply.
Closed loops are a different animal. A fluid is pumped through the outside unit, in a closed loop buried in the ground. The loop can be 5 feet deep and horizontal or vertical. The length is based on the volume of space to be heated and cooled. Since you have a closed loop, there is no dependency on adequate volumes of water and no impurities to deal with.
Open loops are cheap, closed loops are much more expensive. So, before choosing an open loop system, do your homework. Test the water among other things. In my time, I have seen 4 open loop systems, installed less than 5 years, being replaced because the homework was not done.
I am not overly excited with GSHP (Geothermal) systems, most installs have problems and required routine maintenance causes problems. The attraction is the supposed low operating cost. That does not always work out.
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I would also advise anyone thinking about the creek, to remember the flow is totally dependent on rainfall runoff; and using that source would require a minimum flow or no HVAC working. There may be permits or other issues to cross with the City/County or other agency to use the water. I doubt the creek would support our needs, much less the other issues.
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We are requesting members working for Evergy to contact fundraising on any solar project. We need to know anyone working for York here in town, Brian Presnall obtained a donation of a control system, sensors, thermostats etc. in January 2020. A set up of high efficiency heat pumps would work well with that.
The challenges with our building are several. 1) The Solar Orientation with the heat in the summer and winter coming into the rooms on the South or West. And the rooms on the North or East not getting that heat. Moving that heat from one side to other in heating season would be a minimal cost. We have 3-4 months of cooling season and 7 months of heating season, and 1-2 months of shoulder seasons. Everyone likes to gripe about the high cost of electricity in the summer. Our area is a primary heating climate and savings at your home or at MakeICT will occur in the heating season, compared to the cooling season.
The 2nd challenge is the construction with the concrete blocks. Those hold tremendous amounts of solar heat in the sunny weather. Not a bad thing in the winter, but complicate things tremendously in the summer.
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No, Evergy requires nonprofits they give money to to have an employee involved in the nonprofit. Meaning if we have Evergy employees as members then they would consider us for funding.
@John.Nicholas I agree fully with your assessment of geothermal as being expensive and difficult to maintain. And that using the creek water is a nonstarter for many reasons.
Rewarding the insolation issue during cooling season: What are your thoughts on the cost/benefit ratio of installing awnings extending out to the west and south to reduce excessive heat (and incidentally glare and UV damage)?
My calculations and measurements at our previous location were that the nearly full length windows were creating the equivalent to 22,500 watts equivalent of heating during peak hours on mostly sunny days during the summer months.
Even small roofline extension would reduce direct heating when the sun angle is high, with minimal interference with desirable passive solar heating in the heating season.
There would be some possibility that moving roof runoff farther away from the south facing and west facing exterior walls would alleviate a significant drainage problem as well.
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So just wanted to add my 2 cents to Mike’s post about awnings.
I installed an awning over the west side of my patio/backdoor and it has reduced afternoon heat and my energy bill significantly who would have thought!
It’s nothing fancy just some 2x6 frame and 4x6 post and metal roofing
Shade of any kind is a good thing. Go outside on a sunny day, then walk into the shade of a tree or building. You can feel the difference.
Window Awnings are a time honored method of method of reducing summer heat gain, while allowing the free heat from the sun in the winter, when the sun is lower in the sky.
My suggestion is to involve this with the roof issue we have to address in the next period of time. Adding some extended eves at that time, would be a very cost effective time to design a cohesive plan for any roof changes plus some type of extended eve. Primarily the cost would be slightly more for material. Your goal for shade would be to have the shade cover the entire glazed area on the June Equinox. Calculations are not hard for that calculation.
Reducing the solar gain is always preferable to adding cooling capacity, or more solar cells. The goal for solar is to cover your bill on an annual basis. I live in Evergy Territory, If I add solar to my house I take a hit and cannot cover 12 months of electric bills. If my home were located 3 miles east, I would not be in Evergy Territory and I could cover 12 months of usage. The vagaries of geography and the Kansas Corporation Commission.
Frank, you have all evidence you need for proof. Mike, I agree designing an eve extension makes absolute sense and the added bonus would be to extend the drip line and help the outside drainage. We should probably match the extension on all sides. Partially for aesthetics, mostly for ease of design and construction of the extensions.
How far out. Hang an extended 1x4 or 1x6 out 6-8 feet from near the roof line. Watch the shadow.
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Not fabric if I’m understanding what they are say. They want to extend the roof out.
It was 101 degrees today and it’s been that hot continually this summer. An awning is not going to provide the kind of help we need when we don’t have actual AC. I don’t doubt that it would help with reducing energy costs when an AC unit is installed, but without that unit, we’re not talking about actual livable conditions.
I respect the opinions on closed loop geothermal not being a viable solution. I never thought that using water in a drought-prone region or using the creek was ever the answer. However, open loop design, even if it’s DIY, would very likely provide a level of comfort that would be acceptable to most people. I would push back on giving up on this idea because we think it’s expensive. Expensive for a household and expensive for an organization that can apply for grants and fundraising with paying members is very different. I think it would be beneficial to get both geothermal and solar quotes for our space and speak with our finance team about options.
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I’m no expert by any means, but I know this. My alchoholic friend had no AC because he spent all his money on drinking but he did rig a mister around the edge of his roof and I was very surprised at how tolerable his place was even in July and August. The reason I suggested the creek because I’ve never seen the creek dry, its a free accesable water source and I thought it MIGHT possibly be a cheap solution, using a simple pump and filter. Like I said, I’m no expert. I’m simply throwing out ideas for our think tank. I hope with enough ideas, creativity, and thinking outside the box that we can find the right answer
Bumping this because I think the correct time to start working towards implementing a solution is now, not next July when it’s egg-frying hot.
Thoughts:
- Anything to reduce the thermal load would be great. Windows are a blessing for the light but a curse for heating up stuff and being leaky.
- Awnings are an interesting idea but would be the most useful on the west side, which is mostly the classroom wing.
- I think better air circulation would go a long, long way. A bulk purchase of cheap box fans?
- Do heat-producing things need better ventilation?
- There are lots of times when the space is not super-occupied, no need to cool a mostly empty space
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Right now what we need is volunteers to help do the installation. We have 2 units ready to install right now in Textiles and ERP, and a couple on the way for Ceramics. If you would like to help, the Facilities folks will be there working tonight. Joe is currently working on this by himself, and will take quite awhile to finish with no help.
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I thought about putting aluminum foil on the ERP windows, it was going to be more of an antenna array, but it might help in there.
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Swamp coolers : Bad for textiles too, unless well managed. Too much, we get mold/mildew. Inconsistent levels raise issues with the gammil.
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We have two rooms of final curtains done. As soon as we get rods we can cover those windows. The temp ones can move when rods go up as well.
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Thermal bubble wrap might be helpful… but not so pretty. I think something to vent the hot air like an attic fan might be good…
But let’s start by helping Joe out…
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Wow, that was a long read! My other time-sink of a hobby has now taken a slight break & I should finally have some time to help. When are there working sessions for the A/C units? I have no idea what the plan is, or what needs to be done, but I will help when/if I can!
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