New Code of Conduct for MakeICT

[james.a.seymour]

While my views may be wildly different, I support the code of conduct because it supports and protects individuals who don’t feel comfortable in their assigned social construct (role). And ask to be treated equally.

I believe the issues that the LGBTQetc community, or even the handicapped community, minority or nerodivgent community… are all social issues. We have a social construct that says we will treat this type of person like this. Some people want to be treated differently. To have a ramp up the steps so to speak. There is no value in forcing someone into male gender roles just because they have a penis. If they want to wear a dress and be treated as a woman, they are still going to need help tuning their PID loop right? They can still build a chair regardless of what social label we apply. People are more interesting when you really get to know them. Let’s be a cool place where we just accept people. If they end up with regrets then they are just like everyone else. Hell I have regrets (especially after i eat at this paticular arby’s)

Peoples are peoples.

[Ben.rogers]

I want to clarify that most of the people (including myself) in this thread that have issue with the new COC agree that we need a policy to protect members. Most of the criticism has revolved around the vague and devisive wording in the new COC. We are all supposed to get equal vote/ representation. I also think members should all get protections.
The new COC doesn’t do that. It states that certain groups deserve more representation. The board is NOT responsible for investigating claims, but they CAN publically accuse people of claims against them.
I support everyone being treated equally, living their lives how they want and speaking up when others speak offensively. I don’t think there is room in our organization for haters, and they should be punished if they refuse to follow guidance about pronouns/ respect. I want @PastelBrandy, @Bee and everyone else to feel comfortable and accepted at MakeICT.
With all of that said, I will be fighting to reform the new policy to be less discriminatory, and to hold the board members responsible to investigate claims and not publically accuse members blindly.
I have recomended MakeICT to LGBTQIA+ friends, younger friends and older family members.
I’m sure that as the COC evolves we will see an upswell of support from membership.

[Sherry]

I have many privileges. One of my privileges is to be able to step away from this discussion when the rest of my life calls. For some people, this topic follows them everywhere, because their entire being gets questioned everywhere, all of the time, for real, and not out of a concern of possible false reporting. Another privilege is the color of my skin. It never gets in my way. I don’t worry about interactions with police like I worry for some of my children’s friends. I know they’re good kids but I don’t know how the police see them. A third privilege is that I have been told frequently in my life how smart I am. It’s a very different thing for a child to hear “if Sherry didn’t understand it then I must have taught it poorly” than it is for a child to hear that they must have cheated to receive such a good grade. I can lace up my sneakers and head out for a run whenever I want, because I have the health to do so, and a safe neighborhood in which to run. The only time anyone has ever questioned my gender was when I had a pixie haircut (I have a great story about a lady in a nursing home who disbelieved I was a woman!) Those are just a few, there are many more.

Brian, I appreciate your work on an alternative. A few main points very quickly. First, there is almost no detail in the version you have presented so it doesn’t fulfill the main purpose of defining “be excellent”. And it is obvious at present that there are a number of people who don’t understand what “be excellent” or “respectful” even means.

Second, suggesting that we cannot enforce common decency in the absence of a committee larger than almost any we presently have, which will be harder to staff for multiple reasons (some folks don’t believe it in at all, some folks are too controversial, many want nothing to do with that much drama and conflict), would make the code of conduct with such rules as you propose completely and utterly useless. Membership committee which runs Maker Mondays and Membership Orientations (4 events a month) have exactly 3 members. Fundraising has 2 regular attendees and they’re both Board members. Communications has 2-3 who attend regularly, 2 of which are Board members. Finance is typically attended by more non-members than members. It is crucial that the Board be a backup for when there isn’t a committee.

Third, the phrasing of your policy proposals have suggested that discussion between harasser and victim may be used, or that everyone is meant to be happy at the end. Discussion or agreement between parties is a primary tool abusers use to control victims. The committee should not be expected to make everyone happy, that is either impossible or completely fake.

And finally, the current Code of Conduct does not prioritize members - it prioritizes the safety of marginalized people over other peoples’ comfort. The necessity of safety was reinforced again last night at New Member Orientation when new members brought up concerns of safety at night especially in the parking lot. Additionally lighting was a specific request.

@Ben.rogers - some of the phrasing you expressed concern about are exactly what we’ve already had problems with on this thread. There are rare times and places where a person could use discussing their own lifestyle to harass someone else (proclaiming their own superiority for one reason or another in an offensive manner) but it would have to be fairly blatant and needs to be left in. There is nothing in this document that makes one group superior to another.

We also need to be aware that just because a person is a member of a marginalized group, doesn’t mean that person can’t be guilty of harassment of other members of that group. Cis women can sexually harass other cis women, for example.

I have begun research on details we need in a Code of Ethics policy. Recusal and investigation etc. are topics for such a code. Remember that those are topics which affect other issues the board has to deal with, such as misuse of equipment and breaking rules involving safety, the guest policy, and makerspace security. For that reason, they belong in a separate code which applies to multiple issues requiring investigation.

And if someone is timing responses and critiquing the timing, they might keep in mind that we are all volunteers with lives outside of this forum and the space.

I hope everyone has a lovely day tomorrow.

[DanS]

@Bee Sorry for trying to make you feel better.

[DanS]

@Sherry I totally agree with all your points. I can’t understand why people can’t see that the new Code of Conduct protects everyone. It does point out some specific groups, but just because it does that doesn’t mean it doesn’t also protect everyone if they legitimately feel they’re being harassed. If everyone would just read and see the whole thing, and not just pick and choose a few points to focus on, they might realize it IS for everyone. Thank you and the committee for all your hard work on this. A detailed Code is needed and necessary when you have a large, diverse group of people coming together and the one the committee presented is a very good one.

[Gretchen]

Quick thing to elaborate on Sherry’s point: we all have areas where we’re privileged and where we aren’t. Privilege is the state of not being encumbered by social difficulties that others experience.

Intersectionality is the idea that if you’re a gay white male, for example, you’re privileged in being white and male, but not in being gay, because there’s societal prejudice against LGBTQ folks.

So there’s an intersection of privilege and non-privilege going on there. In a society where there’s prejudice against a trait that you don’t have, you benefit by not facing that obstacle.

It doesn’t make anybody superior or inferior based on their relative points of privilege. It does point out areas where they have it easier or harder than other people, and that’s why it’s useful. But I understand why that’s not immediately obvious when talking about privilege.

[DanS]

@Gretchen Well said.
I think most people do have some sort of privilege as well as something that others may be prejudiced against or at least not like about them. Some of those things are obvious and others are not at all obvious. Since we generally don’t know the details of other people around us, we should try to give all due respect to anyone and everyone alike.
But then you have some people who treat others badly, for whatever reason, and it’s hard to respect them. I’ve heard some people say, “that’s the way I was raised” and use that as an excuse for their prejudices. I think that’s an immature attitude. If we are mature, reasonable adults, we all have the ability to treat others respectfully, no matter the environment we were raised in. WE choose how we act and how we treat others. No excuses. And blaming someone else for our attitude and the way we treat others is immature and irresponsible.
Most of this has little or nothing to do with your comments Gretchen, but I just wanted to throw it in with my comment to you while I was writing.

[KatieOfConrad]

I’ve been reading this for a while, and I haven’t really had anything to say that hasn’t been better put by somebody else. But I wanted to thank the people who have been working to explain the policy and why it is important. I really respect you guys.

[Brian]

When any entity; person,committee, or Board, is repeatedly informed that their speech and\or behavior are hurtful and that entity refuses to understand, compromise or alter their speech or behavior, that’s bullying. When its done from a position of power, that’s harassment.

This is why i said this policy codifies what it vilifies.

The board\space has a history of mismanaging harassment in the past yet this policy doubles down on that. Now they have given themselves permission to discriminate based on undefinable words and arbitrary forward and reverse - isms. They have permission to publicly announce an accused without the burden of investigation or due process.

There is a need for a policy and there is a need for compromise and understanding.

[BrianP]

Is it necessary that somebody agree with my feeling of oppression and harassment to make my feeling valid? Where does this policy address that validation. For examples, read above comments from several members.

Brad.

Who will define and judge “marginalized” and “forward and reverse” who decides the direction and prioritization of a harassment claim? Who will prioritize safety and comfort.
The space?, with their history, or the discriminators assigned for that task?
Where does the policy address that?

We need to listen to each other and find common ground that isnt so divisive.

[Sherry]

Brian, your feelings being valid doesn’t make your arguments automatically valid. There’s a difference. This thread is so long that “read above comments” is far too vague to know whose comments you’re referencing.

The situation you mention specifically began with a dramatic discrimination by leadership against two minority women, one of whom was never even spoken to prior to being reprimanded for doing absolutely nothing. That’s exactly why this entire subject got a foot hold. Everything else was mishandled by a lack of training and experience which all started during the last board. Things have improved A LOT since then because we’ve been doing the work.

None of the powers of the board have been added too, they remain exactly the same.

All of the words are definable. They’re also relative, so they will change from situation to situation. As has been addressed ad nauseam, we all have privileges and may have areas we’re marginalized. For that reason, we cannot create a simple list. (did you know, for example, that workplaces which are predominantly female are more prone to men being sexually harassed? Not that it’s automatic, just more likely to occur than a 50/50 or predominantly male workplace)

A code of ethics is where your concerns about the board belong. I’m more than happy to help you work on a code of ethics. My volunteer efforts are spread a bit thin, so assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Listening goes both ways. We need more volunteers to help.

[Brian]

Unfortunately I’ll miss the meeting Tuesday I’m busy enjoying my fresh case of Covid instead. If anyone is zooming the meeting please let me know. I’d like to watch but I’ve already said all I needed to say.

[Sherry]

Hope you feel better soon and have a mild case @Brian We have a Google Meet link on the calendar you can join from. It’s semi awkward to use when the meeting is otherwise in person but I’ve done it before for other meetings and I always check to see if someone is virtual for the ones I host. If you’re late to the Google Meet by more than 10 minutes we might have shut it down, so shoot me a msg if you’re going to be late.

[Teya]

I wrote a long reply. Buried in it was a sort of “coming out” . I choked and could not hit send but keot a copy.
I now wish to inquire; Is this a public blog?.I know I should not care. But am not ashamed and might someday tell you why… if you dont press me.

My leadership experiences span decades and is all team leading or shop leading. Not executive. Ok I have been in executive leadership of SMALL local sections of Chemists, Hispanic groups, Engineers, and LGBT. Always with a light touch among peers who are teaching ME during “my turn to lead” which we all got to rotate thru and try.
Most of my technical leadership was Shop SME and innovation encourager. Btw, I have had leadership failures. Painful memories. Im wiser now. In fact, nearly as wise as my Dad was. He taught by example … mostly.
May I stand among the regular one year old newbs and speak?
I promise you will like at least half of what I bring. [what do you mean, is that a wheelbarrow behind me? no, just luggage… ]

peace-out, peeps

[Sherry]

Hi Tim. This forum is accessible to the public. You’re welcome to share whatever you’re comfortable with, at least within the standing rules and policies like the code of conduct.

[Grandex]

This new code of conduct is contradictory and often crosses the line into the absurd. You’ve gone beyond anti-harassment and into ultra leftist authoritarian nonsense, particularly with the “MakeICT prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over people’s comfort. The Board of Directors reserves the right not to act on complaints regarding…” garbage that essentially gives your organization a blank check to discriminate against anyone it deems “privileged,” i.e. white and male, which is a direct contradiction to the "Harassment includes, but is not limited to… Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, age, race, religion, or genetic information"* bit at the beginning, rendering it completely toothless, poorly constructed, and idiotic, which is a common trademark of leftist activist thinking.

You might want to look into the legality of discrimination as it pertains to US law, particularly regarding non-profit organizations such as MakeICT, as this new “anti-harassment” policy is, at the very least, opening you up to future lawsuits. And for examples of what happens when you allow such identity-politics driven ultra leftist rhetoric to permeate an organization, the internet is your friend. Spoilers: they don’t last very long.

[DanS]

I guess that makes the Code of Conduct of all those Fortune 500 Corporations, who have lots of high-power, highly trained lawyers, “completely toothless, poorly constructed, and idiotic, which is a common trademark of leftist activist thinking” then. Many, if not all of them have very similar things in their Codes of Conduct that you mention, such as " Harassment includes, but is not limited to… Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, age, race, religion, or genetic information".
I was employed by one of those corporations, which by the way, has been around for well over 100 years. They don’t last long? Really?

[Bee]

I worked for one of those companies too and was harrassed my another employee. You know what didn’t end up lasting long? That guys employment. The company is doing just fine without him too. Also saying “you shouldnt harass people” is a leftist take says a lot about how you see your own party…

[jeff]

Hello friends and those of you who I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting. I am Jeff Eck, a struggling small business owner and fellow maker. I have been a member of Makeict since our numbers were in the tens of members. I transported the majority of our stuff from the Delano District to our last building on 1500 E Douglas, in my box trailer, when we moved down there. I spent many many nights working long hours with Mike Hutton to build out the wood shop and once completed I started working on the metal shop with its first lead. I continued to work in the metal shop with the next two leads and stepped back when my health started to be more of an issue. I have never asked for any special treatment or acknowledgment for all of my hard work to help make MakeICT a reality as I preferred to work in the background unseen. It was never about me, I was happy to work and contribute to the cause. I am not rich, I have very little if any spare cash, so I contributed what I did have, an ability to work. Some time back I was trying to be more active with the makerspace and I was running to be on the board. Not long after I shared my intention to be more involved, I was attacked by one of our members with false claims of racism. There is no defense for false claims like this. What can I do, point out my black friends, my black family, my asian family? There is no defense. I was shocked, but it made me choose to not even vote for myself. I didn’t want to be in leadership of an organization that would allow one member to make baseless claims with no penalty.

I have continued to pay my dues, having only used the equipment once or twice for personal projects, as I have wanted to help make the makerspace a reality so that EVERYONE can have an idea and have the tools to make that idea a reality. I have contributed to the idea that we were building a community of makers who come together in our shared space to create together, sharing our knowledge and experience for the betterment of all. I have never even for a moment thought anyone should be told they are not welcome to make at MakeICT. Each person is unique, with ideas, with dreams, with personality that help to make our world more beautiful for ALL of us. I will continue to cherish our differences, I will continue to hope that we can overcome hate and division.

Recently the board approved a code of conduct that is racist, sexist, and divides us into groups of privileged and protected classes. Yes I know they removed the word ‘Privileged’ but did not change what is clearly an agenda driven code that prioritizes some over others.

This new code of conduct codifies that into the rules. Now when I am labeled a bigot with no proof, at best a he said she said, I will be told that I am not welcome to make with my friends as I have been labeled a bigot who is not welcome at the makerspace. But this code is worse than that. The board reserves the right to support racism. The board reserves the right to be sexist. The board reserves the right to support the attack against a straight man because he isn’t in the lgbt(I don’t even know all the letters) community. This is so far past reasonable I fear it might endanger our 501c3 tax exemption.

I do not support the mistreatment of anyone for any reason outside of crime and its legal punishment. I do not want anyone to feel unwelcome, disliked, or hated. I hope for anyone who wishes to become a member to feel desired and part of the community. We must welcome all as they are, not asking anyone to be different than they are, to be worthy to join us. We need differences, we need ideas that do not line up with our own to allow each of us to grow as people and it adds beauty to the world we all share.

Equality breeds peace. The goal of any rule or code of conduct should be to be a level, fair playing field that treats each individual as an equal to the next with no tilting of the balance of justice. This is why Lady Justice is always blindfolded when she holds the scales of justice. When everyone is on an even playing field, each person will not be pushed into either the far right or far left direction. However, when you group people, when you give some more rights or privileges than another you breed discontent. This discontent will push people to extremes and make conflict inevitable. Hate and isms are grown out of ideas like privilege, and perceived inequality in treatment of people often based on characteristics that hold no merit. Consider the division of people based on eye, hair, or skin color. A division of people based on characteristics they cannot permanently change makes no sense as none of those characteristics have any effect on the quality of the person, their character, their personality, their worth or value. This will only cause anger, hate, isms allowing any grouping of the kind. Likewise, divisions based on things that can be changed, even when it requires a third party to surgically make the changes, will lead to the same outcome as divisions based on unchangeable characteristics.

Personally, as a Christian, my faith dictates that I cannot even feel that I am better than anyone else. Much worse to actually have an ism where I think I am more important, more valuable, etc. Please consider what I have shared, please consider what this new code does, please consider all things to find the truth of the matter. I wish you all well, but for now, I am going to step back and cancel my membership as I have little hope the board will see the wisdom of my words.

To whom it may concern, please close my Jeff@makeict.org email address. No badge to turn off as I had not yet made it to an orientation class.

Rustin, please bring me the sheer to repair as my last contribution to the makerspace.

[Tyra]

@jeff You see to have a lot to say but nothing you’ve said is sharing anything in the Anti-Discrimination Code of Conduct. Are you sure you read the same thing I did?

I think an excellent review would be to see equality vs. equity. Not everyone has the same opportunities in life, and the Code of Conduct is literally just saying “Don’t be a bad person, if you do you’ll get warned. If you continue, your membership might be revoked.”

I’m happy you’ve helped MakeICT so much and you do seem to have a lot of value here. I’m not sure why you think having rules on how to interact with others is a bad thing. Please also review: Equality vs Equity - Difference and Comparison | Diffen so you may learn more about people of diverse backgrounds and how equality doesn’t help, but equity does.

Please have a day.

@DanS You’ve been such a resource in chat, I hope people here realize and value you. Thank you for your responses. My friends and I have been reading chat and you’re the reason why we are still going to be here.

Others that think this is some political woo-ing, it’s really not. The rules are simple. Just don’t be a douche. Cool thanks