I am concerned about a minor accessing the wood or metalshops. There are very dangerous tools in both shops that can remove appendages in an instant.That would be my concern with young members or guests.
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Which is a valid concern.
But the counterpoint is: that’s a concern at ANY age. - we knew this going in, that’s why there are rules for using dangerous equipment.
Your assumption is that kids under 16 or whatever have no self control and are going to come in, break rules, do dangerous things, and leave messes.
The counterpoint is that ANYONE regardless of age can have that happen. So is a second set of rules for a minority really needed?
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Especially when complains seem to be arising around adult behavior.
My 11 yr old hasn’t “played” in years and is such a stickler for rules her teachers always comment on it. She’s already leading her peers in extracurricular activities, making sure they follow rules (NAL teammates were trying to access computers they weren’t allowed to - she didn’t “tattle”, she just pointedly told her teammates they weren’t allowed to and to stop.) Restricting her as a member because adults are making mistakes is counterproductive and reeks of age-ism.
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thanks james.
I know my kid. I know that when I leave my 9 year old in classroom gluing popsicle sticks together, she is not going to run from there into the woodshop to start turning on saws.
I also know that when we were all in ceramics the other night and my 12 year old asked me “can I go check on my 3d print?” she was not going to run into the metal shop and start welding.
if either of these totally weird things happened I would accept responsibility.
but right now, I cannot let my 9 year old glue in a quiet room, I have to keep her in the noisy fab lab if I’m using the laser cutter. I can’t let my 12 year old go check on her 3d print by herself. I can’t have one group of middle school volunteers organize fabric scraps while another group organizes electronics components.
and nobody can walk to the bathroom!
that’s why I’m asking to reduce “direct supervision” to a “30 minute check-in” policy. would that work?
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Isn’t strict as others are trying to lead you to believe
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I’ve stayed out of these discussions about policies, but I’ve watched them like you watch a train wreck. I keep seeing comments about my kids are… Or I teach my grandkids to…
I’ve had this discussion a bunch over the past couple years, but the tldr version is this: everybody does not have the same life experience as everybody else.
Whether it’s gun control, LGBT rights, or letting minors run around unsupervised, whatever policy is enacted involves and affects many different individuals from many different demographics, backgrounds, and life experiences. All the anecdotal opinion is helpful but ultimately, the policy that best fits the amalgam of groups and individuals affected will almost certainly make everybody a little bit unhappy. Imo, group policy in a setting like this should not cater to any particular individual or group of individuals.
Also, words matter. But so does perception. In the court of public opinion, perception tends to have a more profound effect than the intent.
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Is there a difference in the liability of MakeICT if something happens to an adult vs a minor without adult supervision?
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Ive noticed this too. Im really happy that so many members ARE teaching their kids well. Im glad that YOUR kids are well behaved in the space. But that simply is NOT the case with all kids (or yes, adults). I have some young cousins who are absolute NIGHTMARES to be around, and when I worked retail I saw my fair share of kids destroying a freshly faced aisle. As I mentioned previously, I myself was a bit destructive and overly curious. Your kids don’t do that. Great. Most don’t. But another more disrespectful kid may think the woodshop would be a great place to go in and start pressing buttons. I agree with Tyra that safety should be the ultimate priority.
And yes adults can do that stuff too. But adults also have better developed judgement and self control generally. You don’t pop out of your mom knowing what is and isnt dangerous. Adults also have to take responsibility for their own actions. A big issue here is who is to take responsibility for a minor if they do something wrong? Their parent or themselves? And at what age do they answer for themselves? If a kid gets hurt in our space who is held liable if no one was there to supervise them? A lot of what ifs reside here, but do we have to wait for a kid to seriously hurt themselves before we address the issue?
Like I’ve said previously I have no issues with kids being in the space. But I don’t think we should dismiss all concerns in this channel regarding supervision, as Tyra mentioned, there are dangerous areas to consider.
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I’m glad everyone’s kids are well behaved and never make mistakes or accidents.
However, we shouldn’t treat kids like full adults. Be responsible for your kids, no matter how good they are they are not above policies. Any repercussions they have will fall on the member responsible as it should be.
MakeICT doesn’t need any bad rep for preventable accidents or deaths when it could be avoided by having unsupervised kids be supervised by their guardians.
I don’t see why this is a big deal, I understand kids not needing escorted to the bathroom, that’s not the issue. The issue is having kids around projects, dangerous equipment and the like.
Could MakeICT be sued from a member whose child gets severely hurt and can MakeICT lose its volunteer licensing or whatever if kids are unsupervised in areas like the woodshop, the kilnroom, the metal shop, etc?
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I’m a bit confused by this. 25 is the average age a persons brain stops “growing,” not when they “become adults.” Are you implying that a 23 year old needs the same supervision as a 7 year old? That’s certainly not how the brain works. If we’re going to compare this to driving, you get your license about the age of 16, and before you have a license you are to be supervised while learning. And if we are to compare it to auto insurance, shall female members be paying more than male members as well? I can’t really tell what you are suggesting here.
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Don’t forget single vs married!
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On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 09:15 Bee Bridget Wherrell via MakeICT Forum <noreply@talk.makeict.org> wrote:
| Bee MakeICT Member
December 12 |
- | - |
I’m a bit confused by this. 25 is the average age a persons brain stops “growing,” not when they “become adults.” Are you implying that a 23 year old needs the same supervision as a 7 year old? That’s certainly not how the brain works. If we’re going to compare this to driving, you get your license about the age of 16, and before you have a license you are to be supervised while learning. And if we are to compare it to auto insurance, shall female members be paying more than male members as well? I can’t really tell what you are suggesting here.
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In Reply To
| jwithers MakeICT Member
December 12 |
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When kids turn 25 years old, they get a discount with their auto insurance policy. The age of 25 is when “kids” become “adults” with auto insurance companies. Apparently “kids” under the age of 25 are the most irresponable people on the roads. I’m willing the bet the same could be said about those i…
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I dont think 16 year olds are the ones we are worried about. We are worried about much younger children. Which is why the question of an age cap has come up? Because it would seem obvious that a 4 year old should not be left unsupervised… At least that would seem obvious to me…
Oh but forgive me, I’m under 25 so I must be wrong to feel that way
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Yea… the issue wasn’t with 16 year olds, they at least have some semblance of responsibility, it was with younger kids who don’t even have the life experience to determine proper processing. If a 16yo gets their finger cut off, they will at least know (hopefully) that they need to get help. Children don’t have the experience and shock would likely overwhelm them when unsupervised.
We shouldn’t treat an 11yo like an adult, just like how we don’t treat 16yo like adults. Plus that age gap is a massive difference. I thought you had meant that even at the age of 25, “kids” will still make bad decisions, which yea, obviously.
So we definitely shouldn’t allow children who are under 18/16 whatever age cap to be unsupervised. Just because adults do doesn’t mean we should let children do it.
It means we need to follow the proper channels for adults who break policies, and supervise kids. Easy
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I’m inclined to agree. If a young child accidentally broke something in ceramics because they were playing, I would absolutely not be upset with the child, and would never expect them to answer to the accident as an adult. I would, however, be upset by the fact that there was no one there to correct them to prevent the accident in the first place.
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To finish my thought, it doesn’t matter what we all debate about or personally belief about our impossibly well behaved children.
If MakeICT is susceptible to lawsuits from members or nonmembers because a policy is removed or there isn’t a specific policy stating “children under xyz must be supervised at all times” and could lose it’s status as a nonprofit, why would we risk it?
If not to keep children safe from dangerous equipment, then at least we should make sure that MakeICT can still be here should an accident happen by having our bases covered.
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There’s a little bit of truth that the last part of brain development isn’t fully developed until around 25 years of age ( on average). But insurance statistics are that the first 3 or so years of driving when the highest rates of accidents happen. It’s true for people that start at 14 and true for people that start driving at 42.
Driving involves a large number of separate skills and “mature judgement” isn’t the biggest factor in insurance risk of younger drivers (it is a factor, but not as important as inexperience).
So it’s not a very useful comparison in the makerspace. In my opinion.
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Not only that, but rates of insurance also rise when you turn 21 and drop when you turn 27. Insurance is a very poor comparison when talking about supervision.
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If MakeICT is susceptible to lawsuits from members or nonmembers because a policy is removed or there isn’t a specific policy stating “children under xyz must be supervised at all times” and could lose it’s status as a nonprofit, why would we risk it?
Isn’t XYZ = 16? We have that rule I thought.
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It’s supposed to be a rule, but clearly not one people all care to follow.
It says you need to be “accompanied” by an adult. That brings to question if that word implies supervising a kid or if they just need to be in the building together.
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The point isn’t the specifics of the rule (like you said we currently have it), the point is that members would prefer to not follow it/remove it because “adults do the same/worse thing” which doesn’t make sense because we shouldn’t hold children to the adults of standards anyways, and guardians supervise how children interact with the spaces.
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