Minor membership controversy

Nobody is assuming a child is purposefully breaking anything. But the fact is at young ages children can be curious. And at young ages they may not be as aware of your surroundings as an adult. And kids have a lot of energy. All these things combined (none of which are bad things at all!) do lead to accidents that may involve breaking things. Most parents can attest to this. I know my parents tell stories often about how many Christmas ornaments and VHS tapes we lost to my playtime (Pulling out the tape was just too much fun to resist).

I think it sounds like everyone is absolutely fine with welcoming children to the makerspace! It’s just that before a certain age they need to have adult supervision for their own safety and potentially the safety of our equipment and work.

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Poetry is nearer to vital truth than history.
-Plato
:joy:

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I don’t think the kids in ceramics last tuesday had anyone tell them the basic rules and what was what in the space. I left at one point and the kids were still there and I told them it was nice seeing new faces and left. I was told the next day they got into my shelf and helped themselves to my stuff. I’m not ok with that, I feel mildly violated and irritated because for some unknown Cosmic reason my shelf seems to be a magnet for this type of thing. The Ceramic Vortex

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is it my middle school community service night? I might have told a couple kids to dust the hallway lockers, I didn’t stare at them the whole time but I check in with them like… every five minutes. a LOT.

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That is not following our guest policy correct? I don’t know of any exceptions. The halls have cameras at least.

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I’ll be sure to watch them next time. I’m sorry if they bothered anyone while they were cleaning the space.

But while we’re talking… it is hard to let kids feel included without any freedom in the space. At one time didn’t we have a policy that just said I’m responsible for my guests? If they break a rule, use a tool or mess something up it’s 100% my fault, but maybe I could let the kids go to the bathroom by themselves? Any chance we’d be open to a change?

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In reviewing the guest policy currently in effect, the words say “Guests must be directly supervised at all times while in the MakeICT Makerspace”.

So the question is really the definition of direct supervision and does it include constantly being in the presence of the member.

In my field, direct supervision requires being on the premises and in the “control” of (i.e. the veterinarian’s instructions are being followed), not requiring being in eyesight or a certain distance. In a quick internet search, that fits the other workplace and legal definitions I have found and is definitely applicable in human medicine as well - for example, the orthodontist examines and diagnoses malocclusions, prescribes orthodontia, the actual application of orthodontia is by the dental hygienist while the dentist is in another room, and the dentist evaluates the application at the end of the procedure. It appears this applies in other types of workplaces as well. Indirect supervision means not onsite but immediately available by phone.

So my read is that the close physical presence/within eyesight of the member is not required by our guest policy.

And the bathrooms are a pretty obvious reason that the close physical presence would be inappropriate.

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From my understanding the guest school kids have done a good job and are well behaved. I was talking about kids dropped off on Ceramics Tuesday. No idea if their parent is a member or if the parent just dropped them off because it was open ceramics to the public. I pulled up as a car dropped off 2 or 3 kids that were in ceramics. No adult or parent was in the building with them that night that I’m aware of. I enjoy seeing new faces. However I have a issue with kids just being dropped off and the parents driving away if they are not members. Who is responsible for them? What happens if a minor is hurt? Is makerspace responsible? Are we liable legally for anything that happens to them? If kids were dropped off that means no wavier was signed? If a waiver is signed is that a one time deal for the event/class or does that one signed wavier cover all their visits?

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I added a line that says “anyone 16 and under must be accompanied by an adult” to our calendar. If the controversy is about someone between 16 and 18, I can add more verbiage.

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Have we been checking to see if the public who attends ceramics night has signed a waiver? Do they regularly wear nametags? It’s easy to get complacent in those respects when there aren’t enough hands available to help. Nametags and a waiver would help whether issues were with minors or adults.

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That is interesting, you are correct @Sherry, direct supervision is different than actually being with someone. I guess people can bring a guest or let in a member as long as they know what department they are in and are willing to be the responsible party?
Currently, our policies allow 16 and 17 year old members to do anything at any hour (within our other rules) including bringing 3 guests of their own… of any age. A 16 year old could bring 3 kids into the space that they are not related to and if they are teaching them they can even charge for it? Sounds like we allow babysitting?
In further review, this seems to allow for child endangerment (basically, exposing minors to risk of harm). At multiple board meetings I have heard board members say the space is not safe. They have also stated that members have left for fear of violence and that we have a “bad reputation”. Why would we allow unaccompanied minors in the space? That seems negligent.
Minors cannot be legal guardians, but the can bring child guests? Minors (including 16 and 17 year old members) can also disaffirm their contractual obligations, so are their parents obligated to directly supervise them at all times in the space? Not with our current rules.
I have also brought up that the space has a number of physically dangerous areas without cameras.
We currently have no one checking security emails…
@kim do you have waivers signed by guardians for all your volunteers I hope? Do we (general members) have a way to check (based on a name) if someone has filled out a waiver?
Hosts are clearly responsible for printing name tags every time they bring a guest. Yet, I’ve seen guests (including minors) without nametags multiple times and with old name tags which are not acceptable (with current policies).
@ladeana, When I made a complaint (security, area lead, board member and eventually president) all agreed that rules were broken, but no one took action to curtail the behavior from happening again. I was encouraged to help educate the member and use the new reporting system stated in the code of conduct which is not currently available because we don’t have a complaint committee yet (complaints are handled by the board, multiple board members have already been informed).
I feel like this discussion shows that we do need to review our policies.

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A legal guardian must sign a waiver for a minor regardless of who brings a person into the space which covers liability.

16 and 17 year old members are still required to adhere to the rules of the space. No one signs an actual contract to be a member. There isn’t a law that protects access to anywhere for anything when there is poor behavior.

If we allowed a 16 year old to authorize 7 years olds on the welding equipment you could argue child endangerment. However, we don’t and we have specific rules stating guests must have authorization to use equipment which requires authorization (sponsoring member authorization does not cover them). Existing in the space is not endangerment. If that were the case it would be illegal to have children under driving age inside a car at all.

If there are folks not wearing current name tags that is an issue separate from age. If there are folks without waivers that is also separate from age. Both have occurred with adults as well.

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I was a vendor at the Open House. It seemed you are a group of accepting people.
I plan on attending the Maker Monday to get more info and join.

Would not the concern for supervision be applied to all ages? ’

Does it not come down to safety and liability?

Just an observation.

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looking forward to you becoming a member

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Yup I made sure my middle schoolers and their parents signed waivers… although I will admit it’d be nice to check who’s signed one - I just know the return people off the top of my head since it’s my event but that’s not ideal. If I saw someone’s guest in the space and they said “sure I signed a waiver” how would I know?

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In reality, after looking at the wiki, I see that there is not an age limit to be authorized for welding. So, a 16 yo member could authorize a 7 yo to use the welder. But the Policy is any person under the age of 16 must have parental supervision. And that 7 yo would ALWAYS need their parent supervising them.

True, existing in the space is not endangerment, but there are several pieces of equipment that could be life threatening.
I would be concerned whether our insurance would cover an accident of a minor who’s only supervision is another minor.

It is all about responsibility and guidance. Not withstanding automobiles are governed by local, state and federal laws, children under driving age are allowed to be in a car, but not if it is being driven by a minor with a license without a responsible adult (parent or guardian) in the vehicle.
Much like cars, minors with a Key to the makerspace are, in most cases, not parents or guardians (unless there is a situation where the minor had been converted to adult status by law) and by our own policies cannot have guests under the age of 16.

Minors in the space is NOT the issue. Minors in the space without parental supervision is the issue. Minors may act differently when their parents are not with them. When parents bring their kids to the makerspace and the parent is in the metal shop, or the wood shop or the ceramic studio focusing on a project, and the kids are in classroom 4 or looking through stuff in the ERP, that is not supervision.

I am only prioritizing safety over comfort. Unsupervised minors could pose a safety threat to themselves, the equipment, and the space itself. Even though it is more comfortable to treat them like adults,

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kids are in classroom 4 or looking through stuff in the ERP, that is not supervision.

There is a sign in the electronics room specifically addressing unattended children.

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In order to authorize someone on the welding equipment, the person must first be an approved authorizer. So the Metalshop Lead would have to have entrusted this person to properly train folks. I do not believe we currently have any 16 year olds who are approved authorizers on welding equipment.

That’s not exactly true. Siblings are never restricted from being in the car with a minor driving alone, even a 14 year old on a farm permit (and the driver doesn’t have to live on a farm, only has to have a farm job). One non sibling passenger is allowed for 16 year olds with less restricted permit levels and there are no restrictions in the unrestricted 17 year old permit.

I do not see anywhere in our policies where we say keyed members under 18 can’t have guests.

From the previously mentioned reports, it sounds as if Ceramics has a repeated issue with breakage from unknown persons, and cameras are in order to help determine who/when it’s happening. It also sounds like we need to make sure non members aren’t a) accessing the space without waivers or name tags and b) dropping off unsupervised nonmember minors - both situations have folks who don’t know the rules and aren’t trackable or covered by waivers. Is Ceramics night the primary time frame this is happening or are there other time frames this is common?

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You are correct it does not say that.

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The waiver is a contract that every member signs that minors are not bound too and as @ScottS pointed out they might not act the same when their parents aren’t around. The waiver also doesn’t specify anything about a guardians responsibility to hold their minor to these rules (and the minor cannot be in a contract).

So we hold minors to the same standard of “direct supervision” and they can bring up to 3 friends at all hours and let them work in a separate area from them as long as they know what they are working on?

I am authorized to be in every room. I have seen issues almost everywhere. I have seen kids in the erp by themselves looking through tools as @james.a.seymour mentioned, I have seen kids looking for a screw driver without a parent around in the wood shop, in the metal shop looking for their parents, in the hall racing in office chairs and in textiles looking and touching members projects just like in ceramics. I have also had adults ask me if I know ehere there child is. This is NOT a ceramics night issue.

I have not seen this in writing, I believe our policy says that anyone under 16 just needs to be accompanied by a member not an adult, big difference (might be somewhere, should be on our waiver).

Sec. 5.52.010. - Curfew for certain minor children.
(a)It is unlawful for any minor under the age of eighteen years to loiter, idle, wander, stroll, or play in or upon the public streets, highways, roads, alleys, parks, playgrounds, or other public grounds, public places or public buildings, places of amusement or entertainment, eating places, vacant lots or other place unsupervised by an adult having the lawful authority to be at such place during the following periods of time
… then it details the hours.
By my reading, our policies contradict curfew laws.

100% agree with Scott, well said.

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