Like, isn’t censorship of the human body implying that either it is something horrible to behold (not very body positive) or something overtly desirable (which objectifies the subject)? Either way it’s not very excellent to the subject or its maker. Like ‘oh that sculpture shows its ankle… BURN THE WITCH’ of course I do hyperbolize.
As for minors, as long as they aren’t digging new tunnels in the… oh wait you mean kids.
Kids belong in the makerspace, EXCEPT there are very real things that can kill them. Also kids are inexperienced at avoiding death. So it may not dawn on them intuitively that the metalshop lathe can pick them up and spin them around like a flat tire on a highway. Hence they need to have an eye kept on them.
I’ve met kids that are cool af and would have no problem rattling around the makerspace like any adult. The decision to set the age at 16 was a long discussion. It was more to keep kids safe rather than keeping them from seeing a pair of natural baby bottles or a meat sword.
There are city curfews in place for minors for school nights, and slightly later for weekends. They differ depending on age. So yes, if you’re a minor bringing younger minor friends, legally you shouldn’t be in the space past 10 or 11 weekdays and midnight on weekends. I would have to check the ordinances to be certain, but that’s what I recall.
That being said, I probably wouldn’t say anything unless I saw something concerning going on, and that’s a bigger issue.
I do think cameras in all the rooms should be installed. And I do think members need to realize they can’t use ANY equipment without being certified. I’m mostly thinking of ceramics, since that’s my main area of interest.
I have no issue with kids of any age. I’ve had kids in my handbuilding class as young as 5.Paula brought her 10 year old grand daughter who was behaved and we created a fantastic frog. I bring my grandkids in when they are in town and they love it. I’m the art gram ma. Depending on the kid depends on the level of freedom. Some kids are well behaved and know how to conduct themselves while others need supervision. As far as touching stuff, I see just as many adults touching stuff during tours or as a guest with another member. It is frustrating because we all put a lot of time and effort into our work. Some people like me make things as a side income so it’s very upsetting when something is damaged that is a commissioned piece. I do have an issue with censorship in relation to art. I got commissioned to make a penis/vagina bowl a while back. I didn’t make it pornographic but someone could of been offended by the subject matter. I made a few hundred off that piece. This is part of my income, I don’t like the idea of being told I can’t make something because of a difference in opinion of what is offensive. I will put my stuff off to the side if controversial, so its not in your face as soon as you walk in. Many of us use the space for the equipment while running our own side hustle.
Curfew laws are to prevent loitering in public places so bored teenagers don’t find trouble, not to confine teenagers to their homes. There are multiple exceptions to the laws. This was extensively discussed with my teenager who’s now a college freshmen when he learned to make logical arguments regarding his own curfew. Traveling on the most direct route between home and anyplace which would be appropriate is one exception.
Minors should be treated like adults; with respect. If you aren’t their parent, you are not in charge of parenting them. If they are in a class, you should expect to teach them. If they are not, you should be polite similarly to an adult with regard to discussing safe machine operation etc.
If they are keyed members they have all the rights and privileges that come with being keyed members. 16 year olds are eligible to be keyed members. That means using the restroom without a chaperone.
We have sponsored school activities here periodically and are discussing a new one for next semester. There are adult chaperones. The middle schoolers Kim Burton has worked with have been quite helpful to the garden even with only an hour of daylight. Next semester’s would be dependent upon teachers becoming members/qualified on the equipment and/or existing members sponsoring (accompanying and running the equipment they are qualified for) in any spaces used.
Security breaches should be reported to security. It should be remembered that it is not possible to discern someone’s exact age based upon their appearance. My daughter will likely remain shorter than 5’ her entire life and based upon how much she resembles her aunt, will appear youthful past the age of 50 let alone past 16.
I heartily support security cameras everywhere except the restrooms. There is no reason to assume only folks of certain ages break items. Security has been working on how to best use funds to accomplish wider coverage.
Topics of discussion are to be treated in accordance with the code of conduct for anyone. There are not topics restricted solely based upon age. If you don’ t know this young person well, you should take care regarding your conversation the same as you should with an adult you don’t know well. If a minor’s conversation bothers you based upon their age, I would question why it bothers you. If you’re fine with that conversation from an adult, it’s not really your business that they’re a minor unless they’re your child.
The Anti-Discrimination/Anti-Harassment Committee has not shown any interest in censoring art, only conduct. We aren’t a religious institute but religious items have been made here. We aren’t a political institute but political things have been made here. Political items aren’t displayed publicly. Making art is uncensored. It is theoretically possible that art might be used for harassment, but the harassing behavior would be the problem rather than the art. Art is intended to make a person feel something, but if that something could be hurtful then it shouldn’t be shoved in anyone’s face. So let’s take a wooden cross as an example; make the cross, but don’t wave it in peoples’ faces saying they’re going to hell if they don’t repent for being an artist. So minors do not affect the question of censorship at all.
Exactly. if i saw a kid after curfew, I wouldnt say anything. They could be doing drugs or other dangerous activities but vhose to be at our organization instead.
I have not experienced this but i have heard others who have.
If a member brings a guest in who is touching ceramics and breaking said ceramics by accident or reckless carelessness how should this be handled? The member of the guest are not controlling the actions of said guest.
Nobody likes to put time and efforts into a project to have it destroyed.
Personally I teach my grandkids to not touch what they dont own without permission.
The member bringing the guest is responsible for their guests’ actions. That also relates to the tailgating (badge tailgating) posted on the front doors. If you let someone else in without them scanning their badge, you’re responsible for them.
A security camera is ceramics is a wise idea. Probably multiple as one won’t be adequate to catch all of the views needed.
I have not experienced this but i have heard others who have.
If a member brings a guest in who is touching ceramics and breaking said ceramics by accident or reckless carelessness how should this be handled? The member of the guest are not controlling the actions of said guest.
Nobody likes to put time and efforts into a project to have it destroyed.
Personally I teach my grandkids to not touch what they dont own without permission.
I felt I was very diverse in my word crafting to not subject my concerns to minors but i used the broader term guest as all inclusiveness blanket term!
When rules are broken in an area, report the problem to a lead or security. They should be empowered to take action. If leads or security isn’t taking action report that to a board member.
At 16, we allow people to be members with all the privileges and responsibilities that entails.
Anyone below 16 needs to be accompanied by an adult in the MakerSpace.
@Ben.rogers thanks for bringing up these thought provoking questions!
A lot to unpack and I welcome a healthy productive discussion on each talking point!!
*I believe there are members who thought/believed this was an adult space
*I don’t believe it is ok for kids to be roaming the halls or be in departments without their keyed/badged member.
*kids are cool
when I leave the ceramics department I also expect things not to be broken however, Alot of kids and small children have been in lately and sadly, all the work time and effort people are putting into their pieces are getting broken.
I look forward to more discussion however if we could keep the PERSONAL stuff out of the topics that would fantastic
I believe MakeICT should remain family friendly and increase the number of Kid Friendly activity. The policy in effect is below 16 needs a parent/responsible adult. I hope with a waiver signed we could allow an 18 YO Aunt/Uncle or a volunteer Big Brother/Sister or a Grandparent to be a responsible Adult.
Kids are our future. Kids today are different then when I was a kid. I was different then the adults around me in the 1960’s Then kids oi the 1930’s were different than the adults around them. Many of each generation, put down the newer generation. I hope I never turn in to a grumpy Mr. Wilson to a Dennis, next door — or at MakeICT.
I would suggest asking those kids, something like, what are you looking for or can I help. You can also use my favorite, What is Your Maker Super Power?
John
My Maker SuperPower is turning wood into Round Things.
Nobody is assuming a child is purposefully breaking anything. But the fact is at young ages children can be curious. And at young ages they may not be as aware of your surroundings as an adult. And kids have a lot of energy. All these things combined (none of which are bad things at all!) do lead to accidents that may involve breaking things. Most parents can attest to this. I know my parents tell stories often about how many Christmas ornaments and VHS tapes we lost to my playtime (Pulling out the tape was just too much fun to resist).
I think it sounds like everyone is absolutely fine with welcoming children to the makerspace! It’s just that before a certain age they need to have adult supervision for their own safety and potentially the safety of our equipment and work.
I don’t think the kids in ceramics last tuesday had anyone tell them the basic rules and what was what in the space. I left at one point and the kids were still there and I told them it was nice seeing new faces and left. I was told the next day they got into my shelf and helped themselves to my stuff. I’m not ok with that, I feel mildly violated and irritated because for some unknown Cosmic reason my shelf seems to be a magnet for this type of thing. The Ceramic Vortex
is it my middle school community service night? I might have told a couple kids to dust the hallway lockers, I didn’t stare at them the whole time but I check in with them like… every five minutes. a LOT.
I’ll be sure to watch them next time. I’m sorry if they bothered anyone while they were cleaning the space.
But while we’re talking… it is hard to let kids feel included without any freedom in the space. At one time didn’t we have a policy that just said I’m responsible for my guests? If they break a rule, use a tool or mess something up it’s 100% my fault, but maybe I could let the kids go to the bathroom by themselves? Any chance we’d be open to a change?
In reviewing the guest policy currently in effect, the words say “Guests must be directly supervised at all times while in the MakeICT Makerspace”.
So the question is really the definition of direct supervision and does it include constantly being in the presence of the member.
In my field, direct supervision requires being on the premises and in the “control” of (i.e. the veterinarian’s instructions are being followed), not requiring being in eyesight or a certain distance. In a quick internet search, that fits the other workplace and legal definitions I have found and is definitely applicable in human medicine as well - for example, the orthodontist examines and diagnoses malocclusions, prescribes orthodontia, the actual application of orthodontia is by the dental hygienist while the dentist is in another room, and the dentist evaluates the application at the end of the procedure. It appears this applies in other types of workplaces as well. Indirect supervision means not onsite but immediately available by phone.
So my read is that the close physical presence/within eyesight of the member is not required by our guest policy.
And the bathrooms are a pretty obvious reason that the close physical presence would be inappropriate.
From my understanding the guest school kids have done a good job and are well behaved. I was talking about kids dropped off on Ceramics Tuesday. No idea if their parent is a member or if the parent just dropped them off because it was open ceramics to the public. I pulled up as a car dropped off 2 or 3 kids that were in ceramics. No adult or parent was in the building with them that night that I’m aware of. I enjoy seeing new faces. However I have a issue with kids just being dropped off and the parents driving away if they are not members. Who is responsible for them? What happens if a minor is hurt? Is makerspace responsible? Are we liable legally for anything that happens to them? If kids were dropped off that means no wavier was signed? If a waiver is signed is that a one time deal for the event/class or does that one signed wavier cover all their visits?
| 